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General Prowler Discussion why ball joint failure (Page 1)
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Author | Topic: why ball joint failure |
CAT-A-TONIC POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:SANTA CLARA,CA. |
posted 08-23-2016 05:26 PM
Ok....here we go. As mentioned I have completed new Ball Joint installation. Because I hadn't done this before I was some what cautious during the first one which was the right side because the boot was the most damaged. I wasn't looking for cause at that time. I found the reason for our failures on the left side as I went out of my way to stop the install and take what I thought was a comprehensive assessment of why we were having to go through this in the first place. So off with the wheel/tire, off with the fender, off with the caliper/rotor and adapter, off the the tie rod nut and disconnect. I now was staring at the steering knuckle held together by the upper BJ and the lower BJ. I could manually take the knuckle and rotate in both directions simulating the knuckles normal range of movement. In fact disconnected from the tie rod I could move it more than it's normal range in both directions. This boot didn't look to bad. At first I thought it wasn't torn and wasn't going to change it. But after I got it cleaned off I could see a tear developing. But why?? Well....here's the reason why. Moving the knuckle several times it became obvious why the boot was tearing and leading to all our problems. Exactly what is going on is that the bottom side in the aluminum knuckle contacts the There is nothing wrong with the ball joint it self. The boot tears and is driven that way for long periods as the tear gets bigger allowing the outside contamination to enter and pollute the grease which in turn turns into an abrasive. At some time the internal ball portion of the joint ends up not being properly lubricated and can only take so much before the ball end breaks off. And that is what's happening to all of our Prowlers. Both lower joints are subjected to this so at some time both are going to eventually have boot problems. The amount of miles driven and possibly the weather contribute to this boot failure. Once the new BJ was installed I moved the knuckle in both directions and once again observed the boot twisting and following the knuckle. So I have just basically reset the clock on this issue as we all have from the BJ recall and time of installation. As long as the boots keep twisting as they do, we are all for the most part biding our time until the boots give out again. It can be difficult to see the torn boot(s) but for me it was throwing a blanket on the ground and with a flash light got a clear view of my boot tears. The boots can give out in various places so if they tear on the side facing the wheel you won't see it from up above. And there you have it. Until there is some fix, a Teflon washer perhaps between the knuckle and the boot maybe. I don't know. Anything to stop the excessive twisting of the boots. If you have something to say regarding this issue please feel free. If you feel I'm full of you know what, please let me know. I feel absolutely sure that this has been the problem since day one that the Ball Joint issue has reared it's ugly head.
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pgpg42 POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Bradenton, Fl Manatee |
posted 08-23-2016 06:41 PM
Thank you for your observations. The lower ball joint has a tough job. I have long suspected that the stiff front suspension has contributed to it's short life. Has anyone ever moved the coilovers outboard in place of the solid black bar? Or, replaced the front coilovers with something less stiff? |
RPL POA Lifetime Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Rochester Hills, MI, USA |
posted 08-23-2016 06:59 PM
Thank you for sharing. I will take a close look first chance that I have. Your description is very clear. |
syswayne1939 Prowler Junkie From:Lubbock, Texas |
posted 08-24-2016 03:44 AM
quote: I have not, but sure would like to try something. Mine is so stiff I can not even bounce the front end of the car. I do not think they have to be that stiff? Please advice if you have a idea. thanks for the post. |
aprilia76 Prowler Junkie From:irvine |
posted 08-24-2016 08:22 AM
I have many ball joint failures and you are correct. I notice a grinding feeling when I turn the steering wheel. Once I feel this I know that I have short time before it fails. I glad someone confirmed. We need to find a solution. Thanks for all your time on this. |
CAT-A-TONIC POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:SANTA CLARA,CA. |
posted 08-24-2016 11:47 AM
If anybody has anything to add please do. The Prowler is a very unique car and can have "unique" problems. This ball joint issue fits in this category. My car has a little over 5k miles on it. Because I wasn't looking or monitoring the BJ boots closely enough I can't be sure WHEN they actually started to tear. I know once I removed them I looked them over very closely I found that the grease inside the boots was what appeared to be OK. In other words there wasn't much sign of out side contamination. But.....had I continued to drive the car eventually the tears in the boots would have gotten worse allowing the grease to turn abrasive and we all know the rest of the story. Both the BJ's were what I would call still normally tight. I guess what my point is, is that inspecting the lower ball joint boots has to be a top priority. Especially if your driving the car a lot. The more miles you drive the more often the boots need to be inspected. Until we come up with a solution to stop the boots from twisting, this problem is not going to go away. I'm going to be inspecting mine VERY frequently. |
CAT-A-TONIC POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:SANTA CLARA,CA. |
posted 08-24-2016 05:46 PM
Aprila.......could you please elaborate a little more regarding ........"a lot of ball joints". Thanks...... |
quincy POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Fairfield Glade, TN. USA |
posted 08-24-2016 06:20 PM
Excellent observations. Good hypothesis. Potential root cause failure mode identification. I don't believe Fiat Engineering will be looking into this issue any time soon, and the lower joint has no zerk fitting to allow one to add grease and stave off harmful corrosion of the joint. (Side bar question: Did the fender really need to be removed to R&R the lower ball joint?) This looks like a job for Tom Mills of Jefferson Auto!! |
CAT-A-TONIC POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:SANTA CLARA,CA. |
posted 08-25-2016 12:13 PM
Yes......fender must come off. The only thing I found I didn't have to do that was in the ball joint re-call was having to remove the top ball joint from the knuckle. Once the bottom was popped free I simply swiveled the knuckle out of the way. I found couple of inconsistencies with the re-call notice. The most important was the upper ball joint torque spec. They list the nm's as foot pounds. It says 95lbs and should be 65 foot pounds. 95 is in nm's. That mistake is also in the factory service manual and should be pointed out to any mechanic that will be doing the ball joint replacement. Since I didn't remove the upper joint I did loosen it and re-tighten it to the 65 pound spec just to be sure. The recall notice also shows a washer on the bottom joint. That wasn't proper. The bottom nut has a special coned plastic attachment that keeps the ball joint from spinning while you torque it to 70 pound spec. |
CAT-A-TONIC POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:SANTA CLARA,CA. |
posted 08-25-2016 12:20 PM
One other issue regarding the lower joint. The joint itself is pretty stout and sealed tightly. Once assembled there should be no need to re-grease it as there is no place that the original grease would be leaking from. Even with a torn boot your not going to see the original grease squirting out. Unless of course the boot was completely destroyed. |
MDProwler POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Fallston,MD USA |
posted 08-26-2016 09:20 PM
Is there room enough to insert a thin nylon washer between the boot and the knuckle so that maybe the washer will slip on the knuckle and not transfer the twisting motion to the boot? Will silicone spray lubricate it to keep it from grabbing(temp solution)? This message has been edited by MDProwler on 08-26-2016 at 09:21 PM |
mslc10 POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Bulverde, Texas, United States |
posted 08-26-2016 10:23 PM
I like the thin nylon washer idea. Bet you could make one out of a plastic milk jug , make a cut in it so it would slide in without disassembly. If it works then make it out of nylon..... This message has been edited by mslc10 on 08-26-2016 at 10:24 PM |
drbutton | POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Canon City, CO, USA |
posted 08-26-2016 10:38 PM
Tom Mills or Larry Lord, please help! |
aprilia76 Prowler Junkie From:irvine |
posted 08-27-2016 12:17 AM
I have replaced the left side 4 times and the right 3. I kinda figured out when they were going to fail. First the steering becomes lose then you feel a sping feeling, more like clicking sound, trying to find the best word to describe it but can't, and finally you will feel the grind. If you were to get the ball joint wet and you have the grinding sensation, the ball joint will fail immediately. Thats my experience with the ball joint, had to pay for the first two ball joints becausr the recall was not out yet. Lots of miles on my cat, 175k, got lots of stories too! |
CAT-A-TONIC POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:SANTA CLARA,CA. |
posted 08-27-2016 12:51 PM
Thanks for the response Aprilia76. Your story is SCARY! Obviously you are for the most part driving until failure. Good thing you haven't lost control and crashed or worse. But this is my point. Monitoring these joint boots should (needs)to be a top priority with all of us. The more you drive with a torn boot the sooner your going to have a problem. As of yesterday I have noticed one other item that might be contributing to our boot problem. It's possible that the small upper wire tension ring on the top of the boot might be too tight. During replacement, as you draw the ball joint stem through the knuckle it collapses the boot from the top down. The ring now grips the lower portion of the stem and between the upper friction of the knuckle contacting the boot and the tension of the ring, those two items together might be enough the create the boot twisting that eventually leads to boot failure. Ball joints have been around forever and we should not have to be dealing with such an elementary issue. I have never heard of ANY other automobile that has ever had ball joint failures like we are having. And this doesn't apply to just one car so you can rule out some kind of clearance issue between different years. It's a standing engineering failure that wasn't caught several years ago and not corrected. This should have been be on CHRYSLER to correct years ago when this problem was first brought to everyone's attention. We need to come up with a solution to this. This isn't a small insignificant problem. And Chrysler should be involved so we can enjoy our Prowlers without having to drive them with a problem of this magnitude in our minds. . |
quincy POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Fairfield Glade, TN. USA |
posted 08-27-2016 02:45 PM
quote: This sounds like a potential fix! The milk jug material is as robust as nylon in this type of application, and may be slick enough. Can we get someone who has a lift at home to check this as a possibility? Good thinking mslc10! |
CAT-A-TONIC POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:SANTA CLARA,CA. |
posted 08-27-2016 04:28 PM
Don't forget.......any exterior "fix" is going to have to survive the outside elements. Brake dust, road dirt. water and temperature changes along with friction from the parts rubbing on one another. It's not going to be that easy to just add something to the outside and expect it to survive without winding up back where we started. |
mslc10 POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Bulverde, Texas, United States |
posted 08-27-2016 10:43 PM
Thanks Quincy! I still think that the lack of fenders allows uv rays to degrade the boot also. Other vehicles joints are shrouded by fenders......just an additional thought. In response to the nylon washer....use two! Friction coefficient between two nylon entities is .15. Or Teflon .....04! So who has a ball joint that can be measured for hole diameter, can calculate the thickness needed and give these guys a call?........ They can make us whatever we need! Is there a recess in the bottom of the knuckle or is it just flat where the boot contacts it? This message has been edited by mslc10 on 08-27-2016 at 11:13 PM |
mslc10 POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Bulverde, Texas, United States |
posted 08-27-2016 10:50 PM
Interesting thought.........why not the rear ball joint too???? Either/and the turning IS tearing the boot , the lack of fenders that shroud the boot from the sun....... |
Landscape Doctor POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Live Free Or Die State, NH |
posted 08-27-2016 11:17 PM
Phil is going to hate me for this one,,, I tried to keep quiet but,,, but,,, KEEP EM LUBED. I feel so much better I got it out. Trust me it was not easy. |
ProwlerCar Prowler Junkie From:USA |
posted 08-28-2016 09:16 AM
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Largent POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Saugus, CA, USA |
posted 08-28-2016 10:58 AM
This is very interesting and downright upsetting. This should be high on Chrysler's to-do list. . Help a newbie out- where are the upper and lower ball joints? |
ProwlerCar Prowler Junkie From:USA |
posted 08-28-2016 11:09 AM
video |
padroo POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Chesterton, IN, USA |
posted 08-28-2016 11:21 AM
Upper and lower ball joint locations on front suspension, there are ball joints on the rear also but you never hear anyone really complaining about them. I suppose it is because they don't turn with the rear wheels like the front does in a turn. |
Largent POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Saugus, CA, USA |
posted 08-28-2016 04:36 PM
Thanks for the location info. I am about to begin taking my front end apart to have components chromed. My Prowler has about 6500 miles and had the recall "repair" done at 2000 miles. . Any advice on what to look for or recommended replacements while it's apart? . Thanks again - this site is awesome! |
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