posted 08-23-2012 07:58 AM                  

Ethanol is causing issues in these engines at the 10% level. I'm not trying to turn this into a political discussion. I'm trying to educate fellow owners regarding a legitimate concern impacting their cars and small engines.

I have been following a similar discussion on the top Corvette tuner's site. Here's a link that you can read for yourself. This guy is really sharp. He's documented the effect of various levels on the operation of numerous Corvettes and has had to change the tuning to accommodate ethanol and still produce maximum power while protecting the engine.

posted 08-23-2012 09:47 AM                  

Court’s Ethanol Decision Jeopardizes Historic Vehicles, Specialty Parts

SAN Urges Congress to Ban E15

The U.S. Court of Appeals dismissed a lawsuit which challenged the Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) authority to permit 15% ethanol (E15) content in gasoline for 2001 and newer model year cars and light trucks. Over a year ago, the EPA raised the amount of ethanol permitted in gasoline from 10% (E10) to 15% (E15). The agency has approved applications to sell the fuel and it may soon appear at a gas station near you. The SEMA Action Network (SAN) opposes E15 based on scientific evidence that it causes corrosion with incompatible parts. In light of the court’s decision, the SAN is now seeking passage of congressional legislation (H.R. 3199) that would prevent the EPA from permitting E15 sales until the National Academies has conducted a study on how E15 may impact gas-powered vehicles. The bill has been approved by the U.S. House Science Committee and is pending on the House floor. With little time to address the bill before the fall elections, it is important that lawmakers hear from you on this important issue.

We Urge You to Contact Your Members of Congress to Request Their Support for H.R. 3199

The EPA permits ethanol in gasoline to be increased from 10 percent (E10) to 15 percent (E15). Ethanol increases water formation that can then create formic acid and corrode metals, plastics and rubber. Older cars and certain high performance specialty parts are not constructed with corrosion-resistant materials or able to tolerate the higher temperatures at which E15 may burn.
The EPA has acknowledged the dangers and made it “illegal” to put E15 in pre-2001 vehicles. However, the EPA is willing to risk destruction of the vehicle/parts by relying solely on a gas pump label cautioning motorists not to misfuel their older vehicles. The EPA estimates that there are 74 million such vehicles in harm’s way, along with millions more boats, lawnmowers and other gas-powered engine products.
Many auto enthusiasts have complained for years about damage caused by E10, which is now in over 90% of gas sold in the U.S. For example, corrosion has time to damage the engine, fuel line, fuel tank and exhaust systems when classic cars are infrequently driven. E15 increases the risk of corrosion by 50 percent.
The EPA permitted the sale of E15 before there was conclusive information with respect to materials compatibility, tailpipe emissions and fuel efficiency.
H.R. 3199 would stop the sale of E15 until the National Academies has conducted a study on how gasoline blended with 15 to 20% ethanol may impact gas-powered vehicles.
DON’T DELAY! Contact your members of Congress immediately by phone or e-mail to request their support of HR 3199. To identify your federal Representative and Senators in the U.S. Congress, click here: http://semasan.com/lookup.asp?g=semaga

Please e-mail a copy of your e-mail to Stuart Gosswein at stuartg@sema.org. Also, please forward this Alert to your fellow car enthusiasts. Urge them to join the SAN and help defend the hobby! Thank you for your assistance.

Terms under which this service is provided to you: sema.org/disclaimer

SEMA's mailing address: 1575 S. Valley Vista Dr., Diamond Bar, CA 91765

Copyright 2009. Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA)

posted 08-24-2012 02:37 AM                  

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posted 08-24-2012 05:43 AM                  

I'm assuming the ethanol free gas is more expensive. Is it worth the extra money per gallon in your opinion?

Has everyone that has used the ethanol free gas noticed a positive difference in performance?

NOTE: After I replied to this thread, I took the Cat out to a gas station that advertised ethanol free gas. When I got there they only had 89 octane regular - no premium - and it was 433.9 a gallon. Quite a bit steeper than regular ethanol gas.

posted 08-24-2012 11:35 PM                  

The facts are that Prowlers were designed prior to 2001 and that they were designed to accept 5% ethnol. Today we're at twice that design level.

Personally, I try to investigate issues that impact the vehicles that we own. I never before had to be concerned over gasoline and lubricants but have learned the hard and expensive way.

posted 08-31-2012 09:48 AM                  

IMO E10 is a scam and E15 would result in an increase of 25 cents plus a gallon just to recoup equipment cost and you still have issue of engine compatibility and less effieciency.

posted 08-31-2012 10:05 AM                  

ALL states have agencies that test and monitor product type and quality. Some through Division of Weights and Measures, some thru Dept of Agri, some thru Dept of Treasury (want to make sure they getting all their tax $).They also test for accuracy of labeling and that the dispensers are actually delivering the proper quantities. There are fines and loss of licenses as major deterrents to cheating. Plus as a practical matter a station dealer can not afford comtamination claims that can runs into the thounsands of $. In most states inpections and testing with mobile labs are either done quarterly or every 6 months. Suppliers also ramdomly doe inspections annually for product labeling, dispensing and quality. They SAY they do this for product quality to the consumer, which is partly true. They really want to be assured that it is their product in that tank. Co-mingling of supplier products result in loss of distributorship.

Mistakes can happen and their a cheaters in any business, but there are multiple safeguards in place both in practice and by regulatory agencies.

posted 08-31-2012 10:20 AM                  

API (American Petroleum Institute) code, all states that I know of and branded supplier regs are for diesel nozzles and/or hoses to be green if on same island as gasoline.

Diesel nozzle spouts are also a larger diameter as to not fit into a gasoline vehicle filling neck.

Some areas required dispenser activation by the clerk on all diesel sales.

posted 08-31-2012 10:56 AM                  

quote:

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Originally posted by Randy Cobb:

Until there is a MAJOR policy shift in DC on ethanol, we are stuck with E10.

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Randy,,,just asking:

What about fuel bought at boat marinas and AV fuel? Does their gas also have ethanol required?

posted 09-03-2012 12:55 PM                  

I've purchased gasoline from locations that label their fuel as ethanol free. Typically it's one pump, one grade and always slightly more than their E10.

My comments and concerns have been forwarded from SEMA, what I hear from 130+ of the largest marine dealers in the US and Canada and from small engine repair shops. The compatability with ethanol in Prowler came from discussions with the original Prowler engineers.

posted 09-04-2012 08:45 AM                  

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posted 09-04-2012 01:12 PM                  

I have a '57 T Bird and I do much the same as you. I get the tank to about 1/4 and fill up to 3/4 with 93 octane E10 and then top off with 110 octane leaded racing gas. Current prices here in Greensboro, NC are $4.03 for 93 E10 and $7.39 for 110 leaded racing gas.

posted 09-04-2012 01:18 PM                  

I, like you have experience in a certain field and try to share in hopes someone can benefit.

posted 09-04-2012 01:26 PM                  

Does your Firebird ever vapor lock in hot conditions? My T Bird WAS awful anytime it got over 75 degrees or I would drive it a distance when over 70. T Birds are bad with this due to how the fuel line runs I am told by baby bird experts. The problem did not show itself as bad in the days of heavier leaded fuel. Ethanol blended gas has even lighter "ends" than the older unleaded fuel, so the problem was two fold.

I recently had installed an electronic fuel assist pump that works fantastic! Drove the car (all I could stand without AC) about 20 miles in 95 degree heat 3 weeks ago without a single vapor lock symptom.

posted 09-04-2012 08:02 PM                  

Nope, car runs and drives great. Starts right up even after sitting a few weeks. It does take a strong battery to turn it over when it is hot though.....I switch between Octane Boost and using the 108 Racing fuel as it is so darn expensive. I do not notice a difference between NOS Octane Boost and the racing fuel mixed with 93 Unleaded- I use the racing fuel for the Lead - although I understand that that is not all true either. I honestly just wonder if we will be able to get good gas in the future with the regulations, or will this prompt a small number of "old style" gas stations selling old time 100% pure Gasoline to the folks that still own these cars...... and if so, at what cost. Or will the hobby start a downward trend due to no good fuel and the cars starting to get ruined from utilizing bad fuel....

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2001 Orange, Mopar Exhaust, MTD Intake, Front and Rear Mud Flaps, Chrome Shimmers, Orange Prowler Logo Valve Caps, Ceramic Brake Pads, Prowleronline.com License Plate Frame, Eric Wolf Chrome Trans Cover, Mopar Hitch and Trailer, G-Force Gears, Hardtop, Air Patrol, Chrome Shift Knob, Weekender.