posted 09-22-2003 03:38 PM                  

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Prowlin' Doc
2000 Prowler/1968 Morgan Plus4

posted 09-22-2003 07:55 PM                  

quote:

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Originally posted by 2kprwlr:
So a new torque converter and pump didn't help the vehicle shudder as noted in the topic post; http://www.prowleronline.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001340.html
Now, after speaking again with the transmission specialist in Rochester, Mn Chrysler, and the DC hotline, as well as the regional "zone" technical advisor, it appears that I may need an entirely new transmission. They think there might possibly be an internal leakage.
My tech here in Menomonie, Wi will have to call the hotline first and try to get parts ordered. I'm sure DC will buck and then it will just take that much more time. I guess with something as costly as this will be to replace, I would buck too. BUT I WANT MY KAT FIXED!!!
I'll keep y'alll posted.
(update...tech needs to have the car in to test if when the brake is pushed if it makes the shudder stop. If so, then DC said replace the tranny. I said that it did, but thought it would be good if he did the test and proved it for himself)

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posted 09-23-2003 10:58 PM                  

It says that the Chrysler transmissions are VERY sensitive to the right type of fluid. If anything other than ATF+4 has been used in the past, that may account for the problem.

-GRROWL

======================================================
ALLPAR
Chrysler, Plymouth, and Dodge Four-Speed Automatic Transmission Issues
Transmission problems and maintenance

This page is designed to help you to quickly and cheaply fix your "bad" Chrysler, Dodge, or Plymouth four-speed automatic transmission. Here are the most likely culprits, each of which can probably be fixed either by you or by a local mechanic for under $100:

* Incorrect transmission fluid (cost: $40-60) - most common problem!
* Solenoid pack (cost: about $60-$150 plus labor. May just be clogged.)
* Computer needs retraining (cost: time)
* Computer firmware needs upgrade (cost: Chrysler dealer should do this for free; may be up to $200)
* Incorrect filter used
* Loose electrical connection (cost: time)
* Leaking seals (cost: rebuilding)
* Note: if you are having the "bump shift" see the bump shift section, below.

One way to extend the life of any transmission is with a transmission fluid cooler and a deeper pan. If a cooler is offered as an option (you may need to ask), buy it. Some may choose to add an aftermarket fluid cooler. Click here for instructions on adding a transmission fluid cooler.

For technical explanations, testimonials, and details on how the Chrysler electronic transmission is designed, click here.

Please note that this page only covers the four-speed automatic. While a fluid change is good in a three-speed, it doesn't seem to have the same beneficial effect; and problems such as the bump-shift and delayed downshifting can have different causes. ATF+3 or +4 is still used in most three-speed automatics from Chrysler made in the late 1980s and 1990s, except for some Jeep automatics - particularly, according to Robert A., those used with the 4.0 liter engine.
A painless way to fix a "bad" transmission!

When you change your transmission fluid, always use the recommended (in the manual) fluid. (1989-91 owners, ignore the manual and use ATF+3 or +4).

Don't just assume your mechanic or dealer knows what fluid to use. Ask them what they will use and make sure it's the right one. (Some people recommend watching the mechanic pour it in, and for good reason! We have been told about mechanics who said they were using ATF+4 when they were not. Is a customer's transmission worth the $10 for better fluid?)

All Chrysler four-speed automatic transmissions* are very sensitive to the quality of the transmission fluid. Only use Type ATF+4 in these transmissions. Do not use Dexron or Mercon.

Often, people can cure their transmission problems simply by changing the fluid and retraining the computer! If you suspect (or know) they have put Dexron in, invest the $40 or so to have it replaced immediately - otherwise, you'll have a nice big transmission bill! [if you have a 1993-95 transmission, also follow TSB-18-24-95 and get your computer updated!

Master tech Chris Taurman wrote: "changing the fluid alone in 93-95 units is a short term fix; the TCM must also be flashed or replaced to prevent the fluid from becoming degraded again and to eliminate partial "EMCC" TCC operation which was the cause of 90% of TCC shudder complaints (NOT THE CONVERTER ITSELF!) as well as the aforementioned bump down (shift scheduling changes in the software took care of most of low mileage complaints).]

There is no universal automatic transmission fluid. Chrysler four-speed automatics only use ATF+3 (ATF+4 for 2000 and up vehicles), regardless of what the dipstick or owner's manual says.

Do not use Dexron with an additive. Richard Widman passed us an extensive report from reputable gas company Chevron, which compared ATF+3 fluid with Dexron plus various additives. They found that neither of two major brands matched ATF+3's performance specs.

If you don't have any problems until you have your car serviced...what does that tell you?

Frequently, a transmission that the dealer or transmission shop says is "not repairable" can be fixed with the simple steps outlined on this page, so don't give up hope just because a mechanic or two says your transmission needs to be replaced.

Don't just take out word for it. Click here to read testimonials and other readers' experiences.
Should I use this stuff with my older transmission?

You can use ATF+3 with all Chrysler transmissions (except as noted below - some Jeeps). ATF+4 is recommended for all Chrysler transmissions (except as noted below) except 1999 and earlier minivans. (TSB 21-06-01) "because of the potential for torque converter shudder during break in." Read the rest of this page for clarification if you have a 1999 or earlier minivan. (We suspect that your '99 is already broken in by now and that you can use ATF+4 but without official confirmation cannot recommend it.)
Important exceptions for Jeep owners

Danny noted: "The Jeep AW-4 (Aisin-Warner) transmission should use Dexron III."

Greg, a DCX tech, wrote that the AW4/AX4 transmission was used on 4.0L 6-cyl Jeep Cherokees through the end of their production, and on the first six-cylinder 1993 Grand Cherokees (built in 1992 and 1993), but on the Grand Cherokee it was phased out midway through the 1993 model year. This transmission requires Dexron, while the 42RE / A500SE which replaced the Aisin-Warner transmission midway in the 1993 model year needs ATF+4.
Computer revision

As detailed in a 1995 technical service bulletin, 18-24-95, many issues (including the infamous "bump shift") can be resolved by updating the computer's flash ROM (where possible), and carefully going through a retraining process. Dealers can and should do this free of charge before any other work is undertaken (except of course for the transmission fluid change). (See below for the retraining process).

Michael Richards wrote: The Transmission Control Module (TCM) is another item that deserves mention. I found a TSB indicating a flash upgrade (software?) was needed to eliminate hard/erratic shift problems after 2 dealers told me I needed a $1600 transmission rebuild. I insisted they perform the upgrade first. The TCM refused to accept the upgrade so I had them replace it (they did it under protest). Now my transmission works like new. It cost 'just' $200. Something to consider.
Solenoid packs / relays - the most common problem?

Christopher Grimm wrote that, sometimes, the protective screens for the hydraulic "brain" can get clogged, blocking fluid flow. He says the brain must then be taken apart (not recommended by Chrysler) and the screens and valves cleaned. Christopher recommended getting a replacement from the junkyard to work on. He also said this only works once on any particular "brain." However, Certified Master Tech Chris Taurman wrote: Do not take solenoid packs apart. This alters the calibration of the unit! If the filters are plugged up, replace it! The current unit costs about $150 and eliminates the need for a sound shield and separator plate!

More often, Christopher said, the issue is simply that Chrysler and/or the rebuilder set the clearances too high, and/or the wrong fluid was used.

Joe Ford wrote: I got a quote of $1500 to get my LeBaron running again. When I went to get a second opinion, the guy checked the transmission with some fancy computer, switched the two transmission relays...and it works now. Now, after a replacement relay was installed (about $50) it runs like new! Thanks again to all of you who helped out...and if you have a transmission like mine...CHECK THE RELAY before you replace the entire transmission. (The relay kit is often the problem, we are told).
Using quality parts in a rebuild - don't trust the repair shop!

Master Tech Bill wrote:

I have made a living doing these transmissions since 1990 and have read your page and it's great. I have dealt with aftermarket shops and also worked for dealerships.

The advice I have for anyone getting their trans rebuilt is - go to the local dealer and buy a front carrier (planetary gear) and rear carrier (planet or planetary gear). Bring them to the shop and insist that they are put in. Make sure the dealer sells you the one with the hardened spline -front and the 5 pinion rear. All the aftermarket is saturatedwith parts from Taiwan. It's like the difference between Snap-On and Harbor Freight.

If you have first release overdrive hub it has to be updated to the new hub and and also the 2-4 hub to match the front planet if the trans is made before 7/93 for the 1994 model year. The 2-4 hub breaks quite often and now has a thicker collar. Best bet-buy all four pieces if (built in) 1993 and earlier, all models if you can afford it. They have all been redesigned and strengthened.

If you get your trans done at an aftermarket shop what you are charged for the Taiwan parts is most likely pretty close to the dealer price for the mopar gears.

What type of fluid to use? (more details)

Dennis Williamson wrote that Chrysler 7176 / ATF+3 fluid is no longer the only fluid to use in a late model transmission. Chrysler TSB# 21-006-01 notes that all current vehicles only use ATF+4 type 9602, part 05013457AA (for quart bottles), and that the fluid is backward compatible with all Chrysler transmissions that take Dexron, ATF+2, and ATF+3, except for the previously-noted Jeeps and 1999 and earlier minivans. Thus, it is safest to simply use ATF+4 in most vehicles. The advantages of ATF+4 over +3 include:

* Better anti-wear properties
* Improved rust/corrosion prevention
* Controls oxidation -Eliminates deposits
* Controls friction
* Anti-foaming
* Superior low temperature operation

S. Benson, an ASE Master Tech, noted that, "starting with the 1991 model year, Chrysler has required the use of [it's own transmission] fluid in all Chyrsler automatic transmissions." [See the earlier note on Jeep exceptions]

While others make additives that claim to meet the ATF+3 requirement when added to Dexron, extensive information on Chevron's Web site shows that the two leading additives do not meet the standards.

Rich Hutchinson wrote:

[In 1989-91] both the manual and the dipstick said Dexron was okay, which is wrong.

For non lockup 3 spds, either can be used. For lockup 3 spds up to some date in 1999 either could be used but ATF+3 was prefered. After that date ATF+4 is to be used in the 3 spd and 4spd.

ATF+4 is compatible with most transmissions requiring ATF+, ATF+2, and ATF+3 (exception: 1999 and earlier minivans).

Remember - when you change from Dexron, also retrain the computer and "flash" the computer (if applicable).

Trivia: In addition to Chrysler, Honda, Mitsubishi, and Toyota require "special" transmission fluids!
Chrysler transmission filter mix-ups

The filters for the some of the Chrysler four-speed transmissions are easily mixed up, but are not interchangeable. Make sure you are using the exact filter specified in the owner's manual (or the correct third party equivalent). A filter which looks almost exactly the same, and is even made for the same company's vehicles, may not work on your transmission. (Thanks, Ed Hennessy)
Retraining your Chrysler transmission

Transmission Exchange said the computer should be retrained when a rebuilt transmission is put in. This prevents both clutches from activating at the same time. Henry Traska noted that it may be best to retrain the transmission after changing the fluid if you were experiencing shifting problems.

Mark Schwieterman provided a retraining guide to the EEK! mailing list:

1. Disconnect the battery to wipe the system memory clean (of course you will lose your radio presets and clock, but that's worth if it fixes the problem).
2. Reconnect the battery [after a decent interval] and start the engine.
3. Drive trying to maintain a constant medium throttle position as it accelerates up though all four gears (watch your tachometer). If the tranny is working correctly, you should only have to go to 45-50 mph. Do this from a standing start 15 - 20 times. You'll need a couple of miles of lightly travelled two lane.
4. With the van below 25 mph, do 5 - 8 wide open throttle kickdowns to 1st from 2nd or 3rd. let the van run in 2nd or 3rd for at least five seconds between kickdowns and remember to kick it down from below 25. With the van above 25, do 5 - 8 part to wide open throttle kickdowns to either 2nd or 3rd from 4th. Again let the van run for at least 5 seconds in 4th between kickdowns. Kicking down from 45 or 50 mph should work.

Simply disconnecting your computer or battery for a day or so may work, but it may not.
The "bump shift"

The bump shift in three-speed automatics may be helped by changing the transmission fluid to 7176 (ATF+3) or 9602 (ATF+4).

Master Tech Chris Taurman wrote:

"Bump down" is not caused by the low/reverse clutch, this clutch is turned on prior to the speed at which bump down ocurrs, the actual cause is one of two problems.

Changing the transmission fluid [may work but] in 1993-95 units is a short term fix. The computer must also be flashed or replaced to prevent the fluid from becoming degraded again and to eliminate partial "EMCC" TCC operation which was the cause of 90% of TCC shudder complaints (not the converter itself!) as well as bump down (shift scheduling changes in the software took care of most of low mileage complaints).

The underdrive clutch is the primary cause of all other bump down complaints (the piston seal leaks causing the computer to command 100% duty cycle of the UD solenoid causing harsh downshift). A rebuild is the only repair for this root cause.

GMB3625 wrote:

Sometime you can flash the computer [reprogram] to the latest specs and it might work. The computer learns the cvi's [clutch volumn indexs] which in turn tells the solenoid pak how long to keep any given solenoid open to send fluid to a clutch pack. This will only work with clutch paks that are in good shape with the right clutch clearances. If the clutch clearances are bad this will not work properly. If the seals are bad, you will only try to cover up a problem and it will come back. The only way to fix this problem is to overhaul the trans with the proper trans kit and parts. The mopar kit has all the newest and correct seals in it.

Do-it-yourself guides

[See the earlier tips about replacing the hubs with updated dealer parts]

We have been given permission to reprint Lane MacFarlane's guide to changing transmission fluid yourself. We have added to it, as well.

Steve Knickerbocker wrote: A rebuild kit for the A413 trans is less than $60, the book on how to rebuild them is about $20. The experience? Priceless. Even if you actually bought each of the special tools specified in the book, not needed but handy, you would still come in way under $1900.

I rebuild my own transmissions and even the A604 types aren't hard, but they have to be spotlessly clean when you put them back together. Most of the A604 shifting issues are one of two things, clogged solenoid pack, about $60 for a new one last I checked, or an older software version which any dealer should be able to update.

Alan Wachs wrote: Helm and Dyment can supply a wide range of vehicle publications. The publication sales agent will send me a free listing of all of the Chrysler transmission publications covering at least as far back as 1990, to present.

Helm Publications Division is located at 14310 Hamilton Ave, Highland Park, MI 48203. Their ordering phone number is 1-800-782-4356. I have no address for Dyment, but their ordering phone number is 1-800-348-4696, and they--not Helm--carry the Chrysler materials.

Carl Vann suggested getting the Chrysler A-604 Techtran(TM) Manual and the Chrysler A-604 Update Handbook.

Reader experiences and testimonials
Alternative repairs

Darrell Vines wrote:

I read your summaries on transmissions that shifted roughly and with jerky transitions. Also read about starter solenoid problems. When I had the starter problem worked on by local alternator shop, the mechanic asked if I had transmission problems and solved them all by plugging in a loose electrical connection. Oh, such simple solutions.....

Bryan wrote:

I found your page very interesting. As a former Porsche tech and the owner of a new Grand Caravan I have noticed a load dependent noise at 45 to 60 mph. My ear tells me this is a bad pinion bearing. In searching other chat groups I have found other complaining of the same thing. It is important to remember that pinion bearing failures can take years to finally ruin a transmission hence the car owner can be run around for a long time.

Rich Hutchinson wrote about the three speed automatic:

There was a programming change that burnished the torque converter clutch. Without that software the 3 spd can shudder, though it's likely that normal wear could cause this burnishing and avoid the problem.

A real problem: torque converter failure

"Coming home from the grocery store today doing about 35mph up a small hill, when "click" and the tranny disengaged. Just had time to pull off to the side of the road. No forward, no reverse, not even a hint the tranny is even there...When I shift the lever into gear I hear the familiar faint click like it is going to go into gear, but then nothing. There is absolutely no power being transmitted to the wheels.

A. Murphy wrote: "The going opinion on this problem is that the torque converter splines sheared. Apparently this is a very common occurence. ... I checked with the dealer and they quoted me 1800-2200 for a rebuilt with 3 year/36k mile warranty. AAMCO quoted 1500-1800 with a one year warranty and they will rebuild my current tranny. Another local shop quoted basically the same price and they will upgrade the tranny with a shift kit and HD torque converter. I can buy a rebuild kit for this tranny for $200. Add a couple hundred bucks for misc and I'm in for $400 plus tons of time."

[See the earlier tips about replacing these with updated dealer parts]

Dealing with rebuilders and repair shops

Christopher Grimm also had this advice for dealing with shops:

If you're looking at a rebuild, do your homework. See if the shop knows about shift improvement kits for the 604, they DO exist! Also ask them about a wiring harness upgrade, and how they set the clearances in the tranny. See if they mention adding another clutch pack to the 1-2 clutch pack, so that there is 5 instead of 4 in there. Make sure they replace the spider gears!!! Above all, make sure they use the proper fluid! If not, don't even bother. If they met all the requirements except the fluid, ask them if you can supply your own. Also see if they can get the 9" converter, $$$, but worth it if you want your engine to rev a little quicker. There are also different gear sets available, I have the 3:55s in mine. I never told you what the clearances should be did I? Make sure they set them at the lowest setting possible. This will shorten the shift time, firm up the shift, and give you more life out of the tranny. Good luck. One more thing, an auxiliary cooler is a must!

[See the earlier tips about replacing components with updated dealer parts]
Normal noises

Dan Stern wrote (with regard to a buzzing noise just before stopping):

* I'm right in the heart of one of Chrysler's strongest sales markets. I can stand on any street corner in my town and in ten minutes probably hear 30-40 examples of this sound, which goes "bzzzz---zz-tic". It's completely normal. It's the transmission fluid control solenoid valves opening and shutting rapidly to make the fluid go where it's supposed to go to shift the transmission. All the FWD/AWD 4spd automatics make this sound with every upshift, every downshift, and every gear selection. You hear the one as you pull to a stop, because the road and engine noise are minimal at this low speed.

Losing overdrive and third gear

Believe it or not, this is a sign of good design. Rather than having the engine shut down completely, Chrysler designed a "limp home mode" which causes the transmission to only use first and second, as a very visible sign that something is wrong. The immediate reaction should be checking the computer for error codes and changing the transmission fluid. If that fails, it could be a sensor problem or an internal problem. Suggestion is usually to chnage the fluid and filter (maybe flush the fluid too) and make sure that you use the correct amount of the appropriate chrysler fluid - DO NOT USE ANYONE ELSE'S FLUID!
AMAZON
HONOR SYSTEM

Posthumous advice

Jim, the owner of Gene Poon's transmission shop, died of cancer. Jim knew his customers, and had so much of their trust that customers would ask him advice on what new cars to buy. When Gene bought his used Intrepid, he first asked Jim about the status of the 604/Ultradrive. Jim assured him the early problems were solved, and Gene has been happy with his Intrepid since. However, when Jim found that Gene had bought one, he sent a script for customers buying new or used Chryslers. If anyone benefits from this, they can mentally thank Jim...

* CONGRATULATIONS, NEW CHRYSLER OWNER!

Some advice on the 4-speed automatic transmission:

This transmission, which is used in virtually ALL Chrysler Corporation [Chrysler, Plymouth, and Dodge] cars and minivans, got a bad reputation early on for poor reliability. The weaknesses in the transmission have been fixed. But there is something which is the OWNER'S responsibility to see to: the proper care and feeding of this transmission.

Observe the "Severe Service" maintenance schedule.

Use, or have your mechanic use, only a QUALITY transmission filter when the transmission is serviced. The best is a genuine Chrysler MOPAR filter. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. Some aftermarket filters, though they fit, are actually Universal types intended to fit several different transmissions. Some have the same filter in boxes with different numbers! In the case of the MOPAR ones, every one is different!

Use, or have your mechanic use, ONLY the correct transmission fluid, which is Chrysler Type 7176. The current version from Chrysler is called 7176+2 [changed to 9062+4 after his death], and is recommended. Quaker State and Pennzoil make a "7176" fluid which is compatible and equivalent to 7176+2. It is also OK. Some Chrysler owner's manuals say that you can use DEXRON if the 7176 fluid is not available. DO NOT DO IT!

If the [correct] fluid costs more (it does, about 50-60 cents a quart), PAY IT.

If you need to add a pint of fluid and [the correct fluid] is not available, drive a few miles to the next place which has it. This will be less harm than using DEXRON.

If a mechanic says he can substitute a little DEXRON and it won't do any harm, LEAVE! [and never come back]

If someone says he can use DEXRON plus an "anti-friction additive" in your Chrysler transmission, LEAVE!

If you have some DEXRON lying around from your old car, give it away to some friend with a GM or late Ford car.

If somebody puts DEXRON in, take it to a shop which uses [the right fluid], and have them drain the ENTIRE transmission, and refill with [the right fluid]. This will cost about $160.

WHY? The friction characteristics of DEXRON are different from [the right fluid]. It is a "grabbier" fluid. The Chrysler transmission has an electronic system which continuously senses the behavior of the transmission and regulates shifts accordingly. If DEXRON is used, the clutches inside the transmission will "grab", and the electronic controls, which sample the operation of the transmission about 140-180 times a second, will let up on the clutches. The clutches will then slip excessively, the transmission will try to tighten up on them, and due to the characteristics of DEXRON, they will again grab. This will occur at the 140-180 times per second rate, and the transmission will have a shuddering feel to the shifting. This is also very hard on the clutches, and they will have a short life. The cost to overhaul one of these transmissions is about $1200-$1400 on a front-drive car, so you DO NOT want to shorten its life.

posted 10-10-2003 08:17 AM                  

quote:

---

Originally posted by blubyu:
As a point of interest Valvoline ATF+4 is supplied to Chrysler as OEM ATF fluid. My wife and I both work for Valvoline and she handles the Chrysler account. I talked with the guys in the Tech Lab and they say to use Valvoline MaxLife as it meets the Chrysler standards and is ATF+4.

---

blubyu - could you double check on the above information you posted? I looked at a case of MaxLife ATF and it said:

For use in GM, Ford, Mazda, Toyota, and other vehicles where Dextron III or Mercon is specified. This doesn't seem to correspond to Chrysler's specified requirements of using AFT+3 or AFT+4. MaxLife products by Valvoline are recommended for use in "higher mileage cars" = 75,000 miles +.

I'm not saying you are wrong, just asking you to check with the Tech Lab guys again for a clarification on this.

posted 10-10-2003 03:59 PM                  

quote:

---

Originally posted by blubyu:
GRROWL,
Thanks for the great information. As a point of interest Valvoline ATF+4 is supplied to Chrysler as OEM ATF fluid. My wife and I both work for Valvoline and she handles the Chrysler account. I talked with the guys in the Tech Lab and they say to use Valvoline MaxLife as it meets the Chrysler standards and is ATF+4.

---

blu,
Thanks for the info. I had tracked down that Valvoline MaxLife WITHOUT stop leak is guaranteed by Valvoline for ATF+4 applications. I will post the letter I received from them. However, they will not commit and state that it meets the Chrysler specification. I will post that as well.

The thing that confuses me, if I understand the fluid designations correctly, is that Dexron III is much "grabbier" than the Chrysler specs, and he "MaxLife" is even "grabbier". I like the fact that Valvoline will guarantee its use, but I don't like that they will not come right out and say that "MaxLife exceeds Chrysler specification for ATF+4" which, if I recall correctly, is Type 9602. Even though they cannot use the copyrighted term "ATF+4" I do believe that they can state that it "exceeds Chrysler specification Type 9602" if it were true (believe that's under the Magnusson-Moss Warrantee Act).

I hope (ask, beg, cajole) you can go further and confirm this for us. I see a lot of legalese, but I'm not quite comfortable using the MaxLife short of the above statement. You COULD be my hero if you work this out.

I'll do the research and post the two items I referenced above.

Thanks.

posted 10-10-2003 04:54 PM                  

Here's the promised follow-up:

My question to Valvoline:
======================================================
I need transmission fluid that meets Chrysler specification 9602 for ATF+4. Valvoline seems to recommend MaxLife, but does not state that it is certified by Chrysler.

Questions:
1. Is MaxLife your recommended product to meet ATF+4 Type 9602 requirements?
2. Will it void my Chrysler warranty?
3. Is this the same fluid that Valvoline supplies to Chrysler for factory fill of ATF+4?
Thank you.
==================================================

Valvoline's official letter:

==================================================

Follow-up question and answer:

To:VWEBMAIL@ASCSYS60
Subject: Re: Site feedback from Valvoline.com

Thank you, that answers most of my questions.

The one question not answered yet is:

Does Valvoline make the factory fluid for Chrysler? If so, is it the same material that Valvoline packages as "MaxLife"?

Thank you.

---------

Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:20:33 -0400
From: VWEBMAIL@ashland.com
Subject: Re: Site feedback from Valvoline.com

I do not know for sure if Valvoline does the ATF+4 for Chrysler. If this was the case, it would not be the exact same formulation as the Max-Life since the Max-Life can also be used for other applications.
============================================
Where do we go for here????

-GRROWL

posted 10-10-2003 07:05 PM                  

Until then, here's the portion of the letter that applies to the topic at hand:
==============================
"Valvoline supports the use of MaxLife ATF in a broad range of transmissions beyond those requiring Dexron III and Mercon fluids including those where the following fluids are recommended:
.
.
.
Chrysler ATF+3(R) or ATF+4(R)
.
.
.
Valvoline has conducted in-house testing to support MaxLife ATF performance in these transmissions. However, it is important to note that these vehicle manufacturers have neither evaluated nor approved MaxLife ATF.

Valvoline stands behind all of its products, including MaxLife ATF. Use of MaxLife ATF in transmissions where recommended by Valvoline WILL NOT void the vehicle's warranty. In the unlikely event that any transmission was to be damaged as a result of the use of MaxLife ATF, please contact Valvoline at 1-800-Team-VAL.

posted 10-11-2003 11:35 AM                  

THOMAS R. SMITH

Technical Director, Valvoline Brand

Phone: (859) 357-2766

Fax: (859) 357-7610

e-mail: trsmith@ashland.com

August 14, 2003

To Whom It May Concern:

Valvoline has received several inquiries regarding the topic of MaxLife‘ ATF and its use in various vehicles

beyond those requiring Dexron III or Mercon approved products. In response to these questions Valvoline has

issued the following statements:

• Valvoline supports the use of MaxLife ATF in a broad range of transmissions beyond those requiring

Dexron III and Mercon fluids including those where the following fluids are recommended:

GM Dexron II

Ford Mercon V

Allison C4

Chrysler ATF+3" or ATF+4" fluids

Toyota (and Lexus) Type T, T-III or T-IV fluids

Mitsubishi Diamond SP-II or SP-III fluids

Hyundai

Honda ATF-Z1 fluid (except in CVTs)

BMW LT71141 or LA2634 fluids

Nissan J-Matic Fluid

• Valvoline has conducted in-house testing to support MaxLife ATF performance in these transmissions.

However, it is important to note that these vehicle manufacturers have neither evaluated nor approved

MaxLife ATF.

• Valvoline stands behind all of its products, including MaxLife ATF. Use of MaxLife ATF in transmissions

where recommended by Valvoline WILL NOT void the vehicle’s warranty. In the unlikely event that any

transmission was to be damaged as a result of the use of MaxLife ATF, please contact Valvoline at 1-800-

Team-VAL.

While MaxLife ATF is designed to meet the special needs of higher mileage transmissions, new transmissions can

also benefit from its enhanced oxidation protection and anti-shudder protection and many consumers have chosen to

take advantage of this level of performance.

Please note that we have not done extensive testing on the new 5 and 6 speed transmissions that are now being

introduced. We would recommend contacting your Valvoline representative before using MaxLife in these

applications.

Valvoline does not recommend MaxLife ATF for use in continuously variable transmissions (CVT’s) or in

automatic transmissions where Ford Type F is recommended.

Sincerely,

Thom Smith

Technical Director

Valvoline Brand

posted 10-11-2003 11:44 AM                  

Will Valvoline recommend using MaxLife ATF in the Prowler?

"Use of MaxLife ATF in transmissions

where recommended by Valvoline WILL NOT void the vehicle’s warranty."

To me, spending $3.00 per quart of MaxLife ATF is better than spending $7.20 per quart for Mopar ATF+4. IF Valvoline will recommend it in the Prowler and stand behind the warranty, I will use it.

posted 10-11-2003 12:51 PM                  

1. Total agreement with AC - "support" does not quite equal "recommend". MANY examples - local Ford dealer "supports" (repairs) all brands, but recommends Ford; Microsoft "supports" Windows 2000, but recommends Windows XP Professional; etc., etc.

2. Allpar article above states:
"All Chrysler four-speed automatic transmissions are very sensitive to the quality of the transmission fluid. Only use Type ATF+4 in these transmissions. Do not use Dexron or Mercon."
This seems to say that Dexron and Mercon are different than ATF+3 or ATF+4, so how can MaxLife handle both?

3. There's very similar chatter to this on the Ford Escape board that I frequent, which is also VERY sensitive to the type of fluid - even though MerconV is supposed to be an upgrade to Mercon, it will blow up the Ford Escape tranny. MaxLife seems to be a "super" MerconV. I wouldn't use it in the Escape (note that Valvoline "suppports" the use of MaxLife for both Mercon and MerconV).

4. Other quotes from Allpar article:

"Chrysler four-speed automatics only use ATF+3 (ATF+4 for 2000 and up vehicles), regardless of what the dipstick or owner's manual says."

"Do not use Dexron with an additive. . . report from reputable gas company Chevron, which compared ATF+3 fluid with Dexron plus various additives. They found that neither of two major brands matched ATF+3's performance specs."

"If you need to add a pint of fluid and the correct fluid is not available, drive a few miles to the next place which has it. This will be less harm than using DEXRON."

"If a mechanic says he can substitute a little DEXRON and it won't do any harm, LEAVE! [and never come back]"

"If someone says he can use DEXRON plus an "anti-friction additive" in your Chrysler transmission, LEAVE!"

"If somebody puts DEXRON in, take it to a shop which uses the right fluid, and have them drain the ENTIRE transmission, and refill with the right fluid. This will cost about $160."

"WHY? The friction characteristics of DEXRON are different from [the right fluid]. It is a "grabbier" fluid. The Chrysler transmission has an electronic system which continuously senses the behavior of the transmission and regulates shifts accordingly. If DEXRON is used, the clutches inside the transmission will "grab", and the electronic controls. . .will let up on the clutches. The clutches will then slip excessively, the transmission will try to tighten up on them, and due to the characteristics of DEXRON, they will again grab. . .This is also very hard on the clutches, and they will have a short life."

"There is NO UNIVERSAL TRANSMISSION FLUID. DO NOT USE DEXRON!"

5. Coupled with Valvoline's inability to come right out and say, "MaxLife exceeds the requirements of ATF+4 Chrysler specification 9602" I'm not quite ready to use it.

-GRROWL